Pitching a turn - How long before you see results

[rza49311]

Hey guys/gals. I'm new to the forum and I got really into pitching last year. I've pitched on/off for years but now I practice a couple of times a week, 30 minutes to an hour. Last year, I was flipping the shoe(one flip) but this year I decided to learn a turn. After much frustration and trial/error, I'm finally somewhat comfortable pitching the 1 1/4 turn. My grip and delivery feels good but the ringers just aren't coming consistently at all yet. I'm not getting enough turn half the time and the other half of the time I pitch the shoe over the stob and have too much turn. Although I've only been pitching the turn for a little over 2 months, I'm curious how long it takes to get an average over 20% if i'm practicing as much as I stated earlier? Right now I'm at or around 10% and its very discouraging I can't afford to buy expensive shoes so i'm pitching with Cobra's. TIA.

[jasper1]

Since nobody has responded yet, I'll give it a shot. I wish I could give you a definite time
but I really can't. All I can say is keep practicing. Hopefully you will pick up some little things
that will make a difference. You say that you feel comfortable now, that's important.
Just a few inches of height in the pitch can make a big difference. Also I've read on the
forum about reaching as far as you can before letting the shoe go. Trying to have the
same backswing every time is hard but important. The main thing for me is doing what
ever gives me the best control of the shoe. How long it takes to reach 20% will mostly
depend on how much desire you have and of course we all don't have the same ability.
Good luck hopefully you will get there soon.  One more thing, do not rush the delivery,
this is one I fight constantly.

[rza49311]

Thanks for the reply and the info. I forgot to mention that I have tried putting a foot long piece of railroad tie in front of the stob which makes me put more loft on the shoe. Sometimes results are immediately and i pitch great, throwing doubles at times. Then I'll try it other times and can't throw a ringer to save my life. I do find taking a good step and releasing the shoes a few seconds after the step extending my arm as far as possible before release does seem to yield good results. I think i have too many parts of the delivery in my mind at once and its hurting more than helping. I tossed out the number 20% because thats where I was with the flip. I'll keep at it and hopefully will be able to post good news sometime soon 

Oh, another question, how many sets of shoes do you guys practice with? I only have one set of cobra's at the moment and one set of diamonds. I'm scared to pitch both while practicing because I'm scared thats going to hurt more than help.

[MM Horseshoes]

 If you are already at 10% in a couple of months you are not doing as bad as you think. My suggestions would be to forget about the ringers for awhile and only focus on 2 aspects. Pitching the shoe open on a more repeatable basis and second a good smooth follow through. The second one becomes really important after you master the first one ( makes hitting the stake alot easier) . and since the turn is a result of the follow-through they have to be learned simultaneously. For  the turn I am not sure the railroad tie is a good idea at this point it can add to the frustration. The open shoe is the focus so only work on landing the shoe open in the pit until you are at least doing it 50%- 60% of the time. Once you get to this point then start focusing more of attention on alignment, distance etc. Your practice sessions are short so you need to utilize your time. Pitching  four shoes at a time will give you more reps in the same time frame. Best is to pitch 2 then pick up the other 2 and pitch them but for me I pick up all 4  and pitch them but holding 3 horseshoes in one hand can bother some people. But you really need to have 2 pair that match playing with different pairs is tough to get the right feel for a consistent turn shoe. Good luck.

[cobbler]

If you can practice for a longer time period, it would be better... I'd suggest an hour at minimum, if possible.  I think MM has a lot of good points, particularly that about the follow through... Even though it happens completely after the shoe has left your hand, there is no more important part of the swing than that.  A soft, relaxed, slow but controlled swing is also vital... find the line and keep your swing on that line at all times, then all you have to do is let it go at the right time to get it to the stake.  I know it's hard to believe right now, but the turn will come... the more you throw, the more control you get over it. 

But, in the meantime, you can't make a ringer if your shoe isn't hitting the stake.  It doesn't matter how pretty of a pitch it is or how often it opens... if it doesn't hit the stake, what's the difference how nice of a shoe it was?  The first thing to focus on is hitting the stake.  You can get a lot of ringers off poorly thrown shoes if you're hitting the stake more often than not.  They will smooth out over time and you'll make more and more nice shots. But nothing happens if you miss the stake, no matter how nice the miss is, right? Find that line.  Keep your swing on that line and follow through straight up the stake and good things will happen eventually.

I have kind of started over in this game a couple times over the years... Most recently due to an injury to my thumb on my pitching hand a few years ago.  Essentially, I had to relearn an all new grip and consequently, my average dropped from in the 50's to the teens... Previously, my turn was my strong point... I had been pitching since I was 13 years old and rarely threw a shoe that wasn't open.  After the thumb injury, the turn was completely gone... I had no control of it whatsoever.  It was terribly discouraging to me, since prior to that, it was totally automatic.  I pitched daily for six months with no real changes... still stuck in the teens... I actually got sick of trying to turn the shoe correctly and decided this was a good time to just focus on other aspects of my pitch. 

It seemed that I wasn't hitting the stake either, so I decided to focus on just that... my thinking was, forget everything else and just focus on hitting the stake.  Don't try to turn it, don't try to throw it a specific height, just throw it right at the stake and that's it.  Well, I got very good at hitting the stake.  But, when you hit the stake a lot with a shoe that's not open, well, you know what happens... most of them end up out of the box and it's hard to see your progress...  Months went by and I was still pitching in the teens and I was seriously thinking about quitting for good when, seemingly out of the blue, the turn finally started to come into control and those hard hitting closed shoes became ringers.  Yes, many of them were sloppy at first, but a ringer is a ringer and they got smoother and smoother as time passed.  I don't know if it was a gift from heaven or just the results of my perseverance, but it did come back.  It took a couple years and a lot of patience and willingness to try new things, but now I'm pitching better than ever. 

One thing is true about this sport... it is very humbling... but also very rewarding when things start going your way.  Everyone who pitches horseshoes starts at zero percent ringers.  Some progress much faster than others, but everyone who works at it does progress... you will too.  Once my thumb was fairly healed up, I thought I'd be right back to where I was... I knew it was going to take a little time to get back into the swing of it... However, I was completely surprised and not at all prepared for the kind of setback I experienced.  But I stuck with it and am very, very glad I did... Stick with it rza... you will be glad you did too!

[moshoe]

Great advice from MM and Cobbler...

I must agree with Cobbler, you will learn thru time that this game is a very humbling game. I have always said, the Highs are always so high, and the lows can be very low. Example how does one pitch an 80% game and then follow that up with a 50% game? Unfortunately in this game that can and will happen. Stay true to yourself and your game. The high's will carry you thru the low's.

Some advice I can share with you would be; while on the platform preparing for your delivery, always try to have a firm and sturdy approach, balance is vital to your delivery, if you get off balanced anytime during your delivery it will effect your timing which will in return affect the delivery of the shoe. Sometimes when it is windy out at a tournament I will think about my feet on the ground pressing down in my mind so that I have a firm steadiness, if that makes any sense 

As for practice sessions, I feel the most important thing to consider, no matter if you practice for 30 minutes or 2 hours, focus during your practice sessions as if you were in a tournament, at the time you are loosing focus, you should stop pitching, Practicing and not consentrating or focusing is the easiest ways to pick up bad habits which in return will effect your shoe.

Don't get frustrated in the beginning, find one delivery you like and feels comfortable and stick with it, I would not suggest changing turns and styles, this is a game of repetition and if you continue to change your style you do not develop muscle memory and repetition.

Good Luck and Have Fun!!!

[rza49311]

Thanks for all the advice and encouragement guys. I appreciate it. A thought crossed my mind yesterday that helped encourage me as well. I have been a golf player for about 15 years and I think the sports are very much alike in the fact that you need to focus tremendously, learn muscle memory and it takes a lot of time to improve. I've always been athletic though (bball,baseball,football,golf,etc)so I'm hard on myself when learning something new.

Yesterday, I had a great practice session. I play these little mock games where I give my opponent 1 point for every 2 shoes I pitch(I figured as I get better, I'd increase the points). I may have hit on something that helped me out quite a bit. I caught myself dipping my head as I call it. In golf, this will make you hit more ground that you want to typically. I noticed between starting my pitch and delivering I was dipping down then raising up at delivery, like i was trying to make the shoe go higher by standing up taller right at the end. I tried keeping my head very still and focused on the stake throughout the pitch and reaching out far like mentioned without dipping. I was getting a great turn even when I missed so I was happy about that. Once I started doing this, the first game I was my typical 10% but with good turns, the second and third games I played, I was hitting 30%! I even threw double ringers back to back in the second game   

I think I made some progress but I know I still have a long way to go!

[jasper1]

That's some great news, sounds like you are on your way. Don't be surprised if you
take a step back during your practices. Just keep doing the things that seem to work
best for you. I still have good games and then revert back to making the same old mistakes.
Even at my age I think I found something this year that is helping my pitching. Pitching
against good competition is still the best practice for me. Good luck.

[rza49311]

That's some great news, sounds like you are on your way. Don't be surprised if you
take a step back during your practices. Just keep doing the things that seem to work
best for you. I still have good games and then revert back to making the same old mistakes.
Even at my age I think I found something this year that is helping my pitching. Pitching
against good competition is still the best practice for me. Good luck.

How right you are. Haven't had a day that good since. Couple of games around 20% but mostly still 10%. I'm still trying to focus on the turn itself. When I get tired and I'm not throwing well it adds to the frustration and I can't stand to stop after throwing several bad shoes so I always try to end with a few good pitches in a row.

[rza49311]

I was able to get a second set of horseshoes ordered on Monday  They should be here today.  I was pitching HORRIBLE the past 3 or 4 days but then yesterday I hit on something again and was doing great, pitching between 20% and 30% in 3 consecutive games. I was thinking of making a video and letting you guys see if you could pick up anything major that I might need to correct or anything that might help further.

[donnabastel]

I don't know what part of the country you are in RZA, but I do know a great teacher.  His name is Rich Altis.  He is a member of the Quail Ridge Club in Wentzville, MO at the great NHPA Hall of Fame building.  In years past, Rich pitched a flip shoe and maintained an average in the mid 60's.  Several years ago, he decided he wanted to change his style to a turn shoe.  He said it took him over a year to master it and currently pitches in the 60's.  He is one of the most patient men I've ever met when he is working with other pitchers to improve their games.  I don't think I have ever pitched with him when he hasn't offered me some constructive pointers.  I will send you his e-mail address privately in case you would like to contact him.

[horseshoe_tosser]

I bet if you took a video of yourself pitching you could find several things to do better without sending to someone else. We just got a video cam, and ZIZ am looking forward to doing that, as well as taping others at tournaments to compare and get ideas of things to work on. I tried to turn for 6 months last year, and I felt like I was doing worse and worse, so I went back to double flip. I may try it again, haven't decided.

[rza49311]

It seems like getting my second set of shoes has really helped out. I've being pitching a lot better for the most part ever since I got them. The average is definitely climbing finally  Quite a few games now I've come close to 25%. I've also been practicing more days of the week. I do see a drop off near the end of practice though. I start to get tired and still get a good turn but the shoes will come up consistently short. What do you guys do when you start to get tired? Do you stop or try to press through it for a few more shoes? Like I've mentioned earlier, i hate to stop when I've pitched several bad shoes in a row.

[moshoe]

RZA49311
When you tire towards the end of a practice session and fatigue is setting in, you will loose consistency, short shoes. but also you may find yourself missing to the left or right, due to forcing your shoe or pulling threw the delivery. I would suggest to try to work thru it just a little but not to over do it, otherwise you could pick up a bad habit in your delivery and timing. It is a gray area, follow the signs your body is giving you. If you are so tired that you are just heaving the shoe, you are not accomplishing a good practice session.

It is interesting that you mentioned you do not like to quit with a few bad shoes. which is very common, many people think "I want to quit while I am pitching good" let me share with you what one past World Champion shared with me many years ago...

"Never quit pitching with a double, continue to practice until you miss, otherwise you may quit in the middle of a game" something to ponder.

Keep up the good work and you will find that light at the end of the tunnel.

[rza49311]

Thanks Moshoe.

The other day, I had to walk away pitching horrible. I had just finished cutting my grass and went to practice. From the start, i was not doing well and I got tired pretty quick(almost 90 degrees out). I was so frustrated but at the same time I knew nothing else good could come from the session. Haven't pitched quite as well as I had been since my previous post but pitching decent. There's a local guy hosting a tournament this weekend and I'm going to head over there hopefully. I really haven't been under any pressure since I started pitching the turn. It'll be interesting!